Starkiller/Ashoka Reverse Grip

[Darth Tepes]

I saw this discussion started somewhere else and decided to start a topic here on it.  This is one of those times where a style or move set has to be considered in context.  Let me start with a bit of background on what I know so you see where I am coming from.  I mostly have trained in HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) styles..not to master extant but enough.  As well I have dabbled in Japanese swordplay and a little Chinese...mainly from friends who are trained in it who gave me some pointers.  That being said lets begin the discussion.  In a real world setting the reverse grip is a bad idea.  Sure, if you are up against a neophyte it could work or you could even get lucky..but if you start out the fight with that grip its not going to end well for you.  First it is a weak grip for a longer blade, Second you generally have to hold it in a way that your body is not guarded by the sword.  The Majority of stances have the blade in between you and your opponent for a reason.  You also lose maneuverability.  But the biggest problem is range.  One of the first things you learn in swordsmanship is effective range.  How close you can be to score a hit without getting hit (goes without saying).  The reverse grip limits your range severely.  It also limits the "power" you can put behind the cut.  Basically, its an all around bad idea in a real fight.   Now, all that being said if we look at a lightsaber and the Star Wars universe we have a different context.  Mainly, we are dealing with people with extra sensory abilities and well as superhuman physical abilities.  Then you have the saber itself which unlike a real sword does not need friction to cut.  So, in closing, Reverse grip for role-playing Jedi/Sith..works.  Real sword..not so much.

[Maestro]

Reverse grip is the most mis understood tactic in swordplay.

the way it is presented in movies, games, ect... is not usually relevant to combat, though its cool for choreography.
If properly trained and appropriately applied, reverse grip is perfectly capable of being effectively used.
a few guiding points-
1. it is for close range.
              At traditional ranges, the grip is not as effective, as to wield it thusly would require overreaching or over extending oneself. at close ranges it is more effective.
2. it is defensively oriented.
              to use the tactic effectively your style should be built on counter attacking. Reverse grip is defensively oriented.
3. its advantage is in its deceptive qualities
              The advantage of reverse grip is that 99% of fighters are unfamiliar with its nuances. Therefore they do not know how to effectively counter the tactic, and any deceptions employed with it will be more effective.

For an example of Bendu Lightsaber Combat reverse grip in both form and actual combat see the following links


https://youtu.be/jnDERlcLR3c

https://youtu.be/7m9sd9jydGk

[Darth Tepes]

Reverse grip is the most mis understood tactic in swordplay.

the way it is presented in movies, games, ect... is not usually relevant to combat, though its cool for choreography.
If properly trained and appropriately applied, reverse grip is perfectly capable of being effectively used.
a few guiding points-
1. it is for close range.
              At traditional ranges, the grip is not as effective, as to wield it thusly would require overreaching or over extending oneself. at close ranges it is more effective.
2. it is defensively oriented.
              to use the tactic effectively your style should be built on counter attacking. Reverse grip is defensively oriented.
3. its advantage is in its deceptive qualities
              The advantage of reverse grip is that 99% of fighters are unfamiliar with its nuances. Therefore they do not know how to effectively counter the tactic, and any deceptions employed with it will be more effective.

For an example of Bendu Lightsaber Combat reverse grip in both form and actual combat see the following links


https://youtu.be/jnDERlcLR3c

https://youtu.be/7m9sd9jydGk

Yes, and this illustrates my point.  Real world applications the reverse grip is 99% useless.   None of those strikes would score much of a wound with real swords.  For all intents and purposes what is shown here is stage combat..pure and simple. 

[Maestro]

The majority of my personal strikes with shien grip are stabs. When i do anything else ifs usually a draw cut. These are the two 'realest' touches with any blade. I dont see how you can completely dismiss the tactic. Yes it isnt great or useful in a wide variety of situations but there isnt anything inherently bad about it. It is showcased in choreography 'wrong'. We agree. But i have personally used it in combat to great effect.

[Maestro]

Also, in the japanese tradition there are documented examples of reverse grip in both kenjutsu and ninjutsu. In the western tradition, i believe its fiore who shows several plays with a reversed grip. Though i might be thinking of the wrong treatise.

[Kouri]

Touching on Starkiller's, since I'm currently playing Force Unleashed. He reverse grips while idle and for a few swings, but most of his attacks are actually with a standard grip. It's neat to watch him flip the hilt around back and forth.

[GregG124]

I agree in the sense that when facing another saber wielding foe, that the reverse grip is nearly pointless. But that form (in SW lore) usually has a focus in blaster deflection. 

[Noctis]

Anyone who actively fights with a reverse is used to hearing the whole "useless" mantra.  Honestly, I have to wonder if anyone who criticizes this technique has actually fought a person who is well-versed in using a reverse grip?  I'm talking about a trained professional, not someone who just "tries it out," because if you haven't?  Well, you might need to stay in your lane.    

I had a Sensei who fought almost exclusively with a reverse grip (which is where I learned it from) and all of the lofty purists who snubbed it found themselves quite embarrassed more than once.  Now, I am certainly nowhere near the swordsman my Sensei was.  I would say I'm passable at best because the sword is actually not my weapon of choice.  But when you are fighting close range with a short sword?  Reverse grip is a fiendish level of defense, IF the person knows what they're doing.  I can't stress that enough. 

Don't get cocky with your katana.  The short person with a short sword might just take you down.  With their reverse grip.

[Vivectius]

Actually Nox, I use my katana in the reverse grip.

When I started practicing tameshigiri with the reverse grip (using a katana) well 10 out of 10 cuts were fails.  Like REALLY badly embarassing fails.

Now, a few years later, 4 out of 10 are 'correct', meaning they are straight and cut cleanly all they way through, without knocking the stand over, another 4 of the 10 are 'incorrect, but successful' meaning the cut was not straight, but I still managed to cut all the way through, and the other 2 were 'failures' usually meaning I didn't manage to complete the cut.

The practical ramifications of this are that I can probably take your arm off with a reverse grip cut.  However, most of the time, using that method of combat, my main target is going to be your legs, which an astounding  number of people fail to protect.  And the femoral artery tends to be a very easy target.

However, to paraphrase, "very good, but tameshigiri not cut back."

So, in actual combat I would use whatever I needed to at the time.  I doubt I would ever use it exclusively in combat, but it certainly has its place.  I will note than when I fight with a sword in each hand, usually I tend to favor a reverse grip in whichever hand I'm using more defensively (and I've learned most all of what I know sword combat wise to an equal degree with each hand).

To address your point "it is a weak grip for a longer blade."  How long of a blade are you referring to?  The katanas I'm used to using with have a handle length of about 11.5 inches, and a blade length of about 28.5 inches.  Shorter than a European long sword, but still not that short of a sword. 

To address your point "you generally have to hold it in a way that your body is not guarded by the sword."  If I'm standing around not doing anything with it, then yes.  Otherwise, the blade is in front of me, and the sword being held in a reverse grip does nothing to hinder or prevent that. "The majority of stances have the blade in between you and your opponent for a reason."  Yes, and a stance, by definition, is static. If you're standing still in a sword fight, it had better be after your oponent is dead, otherwise you're in trouble.

To address your point "the reverse grip limits your range severely" I measured, and the difference in reach between an overhand grip and a reverse grip for me is about 1.5 inches.  If you're going to say that an inch and a half can mean the difference between life and death in a sword fight, I'm going to agree with you 100%.  But, one, I would not call that a severe range reduction, and two, if you're going into combat not knowing how far your reach is with whatever weapon you're using in all possible manners of its use, then you deserve to lose.  And having a longer weapon does not in any way guarantee victory either.

To address your point "it also limits the power you can put behind behind the cut" see my tameshigiri comments above.

To address your point "basically it's an all around bad idea in a real fight" is only true if it's something you haven't been trained in, and had practice with.  But that's pretty much true for any weapon.  Using an English long sword, or Scottish claymore, or Italian dueling saber, or Roman gladius, is a very bad idea if you don't have the proper training and practice with them.

Honor isn't in the weapon, it's in the one who wields it.  Skill isn't in the technique, but in the one who practices it.

[Noctis]

*SLOW CLAPPING*

I think that you and my former Sensei would have been very good friends, for I heard many of the same points from him as well.  I was VERY critical of the reverse grip when I first started learning sword work.  It looked clumsy and unnatural to me, but because I am short and small-ish in stature, it proved to be very productive for me and I had to eat an awful lot of crow, as the expression goes.     I can't hold my katana well in a reverse grip, but give me wakizashi and I'm much, much better.  A wakizashi and a tanto are even better, but I am still not "good" by any stretch.  I much prefer the staff to the sword any day.  (Jo over bo.  Again, short and small-ish person here!) 

And I'm comfortable with the staff.  I like the sabers they sell here because they are quite "staff-like" and jo techniques can work surprisingly well with a lightsaber, even if they do look slightly ridiculous.   I really should get an actual saber staff and see how it works for me.  I suspect I'd be MUCH more comfortable with it.

[Vivectius]

Nox, Thank you.  That's probably one of the highest compliments you could give me and I'm honored by it.

It's taken me years to get to the proficiency I have with a katana in the reverse grip, and as I said, I'm still no where near anything like "mastery" (if it's even possible to actually master anything, which is debatable).

I can see where some jo techniques would work very well with a US saber, and I'm kind of surprised you don't have a saberstaff yet.  In the case of the saberstaff, it's a challenge, for me anyway, with the limitation on how much space you have to put your hands.

If I ever get down your way, I'd love the chance to spar with you, and your husband for that matter, since you said he's even better than you are.  And yes, I've read of your non-competetive nature, which is fine, since I don't see sparring as a contest, but as a learning experience.  If you "win" then (hopefully) I've learned something; if I "win" then (hopefully) you've learned something.  For me, sparring with someone new is more an exchanging of ideas and knowledge than a contest to see who's "better."

[Master Nero Attoru]

I don't have enough experience in Japanese sword arts to comment on the use of the katana in reverse grip, but we do have several instructors in TPLA (kenjutsu, iaido, etc) who have stated their opinions on it.  From their analysis, it's a very niche tactic that is better off avoided for the most part.

That said, I don't much care what people want to do.  Personally I find its usage more practical with real steel than lightsabers (due to their all-cutting nature), but that's just me.

Here is one of our many vids addressing it in a combat sense:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0th9sdWMwPc

[Noctis]

Nox, Thank you.  That's probably one of the highest compliments you could give me and I'm honored by it.

It's taken me years to get to the proficiency I have with a katana in the reverse grip, and as I said, I'm still no where near anything like "mastery" (if it's even possible to actually master anything, which is debatable).

I can see where some jo techniques would work very well with a US saber, and I'm kind of surprised you don't have a saberstaff yet.  In the case of the saberstaff, it's a challenge, for me anyway, with the limitation on how much space you have to put your hands.

If I ever get down your way, I'd love the chance to spar with you, and your husband for that matter, since you said he's even better than you are.  And yes, I've read of your non-competetive nature, which is fine, since I don't see sparring as a contest, but as a learning experience.  If you "win" then (hopefully) I've learned something; if I "win" then (hopefully) you've learned something.  For me, sparring with someone new is more an exchanging of ideas and knowledge than a contest to see who's "better."

You're very welcome!  Your explanation was thorough and articulated many of the points I was unable to voice correctly.  It's been some time since I had a proper teacher and I confess that I am slowly forgetting terminology.  The technique has stayed for the most part.

That's why I studied Aikido for so many years.  I had zero desire to compete and I wanted a "defensive" style rather than an aggressive one.  I do some Aikido techniques different than most and use alternate grips, which is how my Sensei identified that the reverse grip might suit me when we started studying sword work.   And I would always rather learn than win.  I used to compete with certain katas, but I didn't do it to win.  I did it because I wanted to see if my partner and I could do the kata with people watching and do it well.  Sometimes, we won.  Sometimes, we didn't.  I never cared. 

Sparring with husband is a little more difficult because he DOES like to win at times and I just let him lol.  I've given him a few good whacks now and then, but he's honestly much, much better than I am.

A saber staff is definitely on my list!  I'm concerned about the grip range myself, but I think i can make it work.  I'm not opposed to gripping the blades for some things, even if I would technically be losing a limb in the saber world. 

[Iram]

Reverse grip is the most mis understood tactic in swordplay.

the way it is presented in movies, games, ect... is not usually relevant to combat, though its cool for choreography.
If properly trained and appropriately applied, reverse grip is perfectly capable of being effectively used.
a few guiding points-
1. it is for close range.
              At traditional ranges, the grip is not as effective, as to wield it thusly would require overreaching or over extending oneself. at close ranges it is more effective.
2. it is defensively oriented.
              to use the tactic effectively your style should be built on counter attacking. Reverse grip is defensively oriented.
3. its advantage is in its deceptive qualities
              The advantage of reverse grip is that 99% of fighters are unfamiliar with its nuances. Therefore they do not know how to effectively counter the tactic, and any deceptions employed with it will be more effective.

For an example of Bendu Lightsaber Combat reverse grip in both form and actual combat see the following links


https://youtu.be/jnDERlcLR3c

https://youtu.be/7m9sd9jydGk

Idk why but that last video really tickled me XD XD

[Master Seblaise]

Hello,

I am new on this forum and maybe this answer comes a little late.

I use reverse grip when i fight with two weapons. In my main hand (right), i take the weapon with normal grip and in the other hand, i take the weapon with reverse grip. This reverse grip enables me to keep a "défence en toit" (that can be translated by "roof defense" ) that protect most of my body ... The fact is that i do not attack a lot with my left hand ...