Why Lightsaber battles didn't work in the prequels.

[Rassilon]

No need to apologize, mano. That's what we are here to do. DIssect, and explain and debate. Long form makes for a more interesting conversation.

 And you make an excellent point about pacing. Pacing is everything in a fight. those minor hesitations can mean the world to a fight to add tension and drama. I can understand why there wasn't a whole lot of hesitation in TPM ending fight, considering there wasn't a whole lot of exposition on Maul, and more or less "here's this bad guy, get 'em" haha.

 However, for me, ROTS was inexcusable. I didn't buy that fight for a minute. This is two "best friends" attempting to kill each other. or more or less, one attacking and one defending. At least it should be, anyway. Obi Wan doesn't want to kill Anakin. But his moves have zero hesitation. Anakin is in a fit of rage and pride, but his moves are too controlled and choreographed. I wasn't watching to friends fight, i was watching them tango. haha. Anakin should have been more aggressive in that fight, each strike should have had power, and Obi Wan should be more cautious and en guard to defend himself. He would be trying to talk Anakin down. I mean, i have never been in a real fight, because every dispute i've had can be solved verbally. He should be trying that, and defending when necessary. instead, I get Obi Wan flailing just as gracefully as the "enraged" Anakin. I couldn't get into it. It had no sense of drama. And I get it, a slower fight would be more boring. But it would have made a better story, IMO.

Also, a Wookiee with a lightsaber would probably be the most ridiculous or intimidating thing ever. depends on how they did it.

[Kham-Ryn Kurios]

Also, a Wookiee with a lightsaber would probably be the most ridiculous or intimidating thing ever. depends on how they did it.

Like this, what say you now?

[Rassilon]

Okay, definitely intimidating...

[Rassilon]

Also, I want to thank everyone for making this possible:

THIS DEBATE IS NOW THE MOST REPLIED NON-STICKIED TOPIC IN THE VIDEOS BOARD. WOOOO

You guys rock! let's keep it going! I know people haven't spoken up yet... Invite s'more people!

[Nhylus]

While when the prequels came out, it was to appease towards audiences of all kinds. And I think most of the people who saw the originals way back when, just had this conservative outlook towards the prequels. You have to understand, the time from Ep VI and Ep 1 was more than decade. Many things changed, not just for movies, but for our culture. The emotion in the fights, choreographed or not, is still there. It may not seem as human. Because remember, 1. Luke was not a formal Jedi. 2. Obi-wan was more able to control his emotions from losing qui-gon, enough to not be enraged. And these fights, you can't say they're unrealistic. They're actually pretty plausible.

I have actually found dueling in a fast-paced form like the movies, to be more effective than the standard.

These are super-humans in their prime of training. They are able to comprehend every little move, and with omni-directional blades capable of cutting through anything. They don't have time to toy around. It's all or nothing, but graceful and cautious in the sense of being aware and relying on super-human reflexes and the force.

The fighting in the movies was based off of all types of swordfighting and based off of what a master of sword combat like that would fight like.

There is a constant struggle to keep your enemy on the defensive and cautious. Waiting for the split second to make your strike. It's all about keeping the fight intense and keeping them at bay, waiting for them to make one fatal flaw and leave an opening.

[Rassilon]

Fair enough, but again, they are more along the lines of monks and mediators, not neccessarily warriors. So with that assumption, would offensive attack attack attack tactics really be the main focus of training, or would disarms, blocks, and quick finishes be the focus? if a Jedi were able to keep his cool in any situation, then he would also be able to avoid and end a fight as soon as possible. I don't see that tactic in the choreography. Instead they aim to draw it out. Which, at that point, why not give it a more story and emotion driven continuity if the purpose is to have a time based fight sequence?

[Nhylus]

Fair enough, but again, they are more along the lines of monks and mediators, not neccessarily warriors. So with that assumption, would offensive attack attack attack tactics really be the main focus of training, or would disarms, blocks, and quick finishes be the focus? if a Jedi were able to keep his cool in any situation, then he would also be able to avoid and end a fight as soon as possible. I don't see that tactic in the choreography. Instead they aim to draw it out. Which, at that point, why not give it a more story and emotion driven continuity if the purpose is to have a time based fight sequence?

To be fair, I see where you are coming from, but Jedi are not simply monk-like or mediators. That's why there are different kinds of Jedi. You have the scholars and you have the warriors.
Jedi at the time of filming Ep. 1, weren't necessarily seen as based off of monks or peaceful society in that form. In countless interviews, Jedi are more like Samurai than they are Xaolin Monks. They believe in peace, BUT, the lightsaber is still their symbol, their weapon. As the katana was to a Samurai. There is nothing wrong with being a master of your form and combat. Even some monks master combat. Jedi are super-human/alien, but they are still "human", they still have emotions and aren't able to keep calm every second of their life, especially in combat. Fear and anxiety drive survival, they are necessary feelings and natural, especially in combat. If Jedi were calm about everything, they would be like Obi-wan and take the lightsaber hit. Every single strike is a block and an attack at the same time. Against a normal individual, with little or mild training, I'm sure the fights would much less intense. Yes, high tensity fights lack silent tension. The fight itself is the tension.

As I said, I have done typical dueling with my saber, and I have done high intensity dueling with it. I've found the latter to be effective more times than not.

[Master Bluespike74]

As a practioner of Shaolin, I will remind many that even though the monks are considered peaceful, 5 Shaolin monks held off an entire invading army that attempted to kill a young prince in China once.  Dont' have my notes handy at the moment as I am trying to keep my daughter from disassembling my computer but a quick google could give you the results.  Peaceful on the inside, Warrior outside (quoted from Major League 2).

[Nhylus]

As a practioner of Shaolin, I will remind many that even though the monks are considered peaceful, 5 Shaolin monks held off an entire invading army that attempted to kill a young prince in China once.  Dont' have my notes handy at the moment as I am trying to keep my daughter from disassembling my computer but a quick google could give you the results.  Peaceful on the inside, Warrior outside (quoted from Major League 2).

Yes the shaolin monks were very impressive and awesome. My only point I was trying to make is that Jedi were more like straightup warriors than monk-like society.

[Rassilon]

It still says nothing to the fact that they weren't acting like they were trying to kill each other. You've said that you do moderate to intense dueling, but even that, can't get you close to the adrenaline rush of a near-death situation/fight. literal weapons literally trying to kill each other. Plus, if a jedi is a supposed master of combat, why all the flourishes and such. an amateur simply just thrusting with the saber would have been able to kill a jedi in any fight i've seen from the movies. Follow Aria Stark's method: Stick them with the pointy end. haha.

[Akos_Amun]

Yes the shaolin monks were very impressive and awesome. My only point I was trying to make is that Jedi were more like straightup warriors than monk-like society.

"Are" I think would be the word. They are still there, still training, still being awesome. The children wake up at 6am, run up a mountain path in twenty minutes, a path that takes most people over an hour to climb, and then they come back down on all fours, head-first, to develop arm strength. Then they eat breakfast. I don't think I'm cut out to be a Shaolin Monk.

Lucas wanted to show that jedi were much more talented and capable with lightsabers during their era of influence compared to the later period with an untrained Luke. I like the faster style and fancier moves of the battles because they are intense and exciting to watch, but I don't really feel like they are truly realistic. In any martial art, the goal is to end the fight quickly, thus limiting the amount of energy expended and the amount of time you are exposed to risk of injury or death. So the extra spinning and twirling of the saber and self are really kind of pointless unless they are directly countering, or feinting your opponent.

While studying Wing Chun Kung Fu I learned several very practical fighting techniques. During every sparring match, whoever used the quicker, shorter techniques, usually won. In the beginning, intensity was often a factor, for, if you could overwhelm your opponent and strike faster than they could react, you had less to do overall. However, after a while we got proficient at the basics and since most of us were about the same skill level, we didn't often overwhelm our sparring partners. Instead, exploiting your opponent's focus on attack by allowing his advance and then suddenly transforming from defense to attack, usually with one movement, proved much more effective. After a time, we all began to anticipate this strategy and we would simply watch and wait for the other to move, and like a good old fashioned western pistol duel, once someone moved, the other countered and usually it was over in just a few seconds.

I have studied Tai Chi and Wing Chun for a few years and I have to say that while I have learned some very intricate and useful techniques, most of the time I only use a handful of moves because they are fast and useful for nearly every situation. I have heard it often recounted by masters of various arts, that no matter how much you know, 95% of the time you only use 5% of your techniques when in a combat situation.

I have not begun to learn the weapon techniques yet, so my experience is limited to hand to hand combat. I know that with a weapon you must perform similarly, out maneuvering, defending, feinting, and attacking your opponent. So extra, unnecessary motions during a fight with a highly trained and talented combatant would most likely result in a quick defeat. That is why I think a lot of the moves in the fight scenes are not plausible. You can still have a cool looking fight without the silly stuff.

In the fight between obi wan and darth maul there are a couple times when one or the other is wide open with their back turned and the other person is just spinning their saber around for no reason other than to provide eye candy for the audience. If it was a real fight, they would have gone for the opening and ended the fight. I think you can fight the way they do, and while the above statements may make it sound like I dislike the style of combat in the prequels, I enjoy the choreography and pace, just not the over choreographed parts with silly stuff thrown in to extend the scene.

[Nhylus]

I know there are some moments that are purely eye candy. Not all of it is effective or practical. But there is practicality in it's fast-paced beauty. I mean, in reality, the 7 forms of lightsaber aren't truly real. They only exist in the Expanded Universe. And they're based off of other swordfighting techniques. I could literally go outside and make moves or techniques that fit a description of flowy/close to the body/ or defensive. And call it Soresu, and no one could tell me I am wrong. There is no "official" lightsaber combat style. The stunt coordinator who created and choreographed the fights, however, created a style that combines all styles of swordfighting, for warriors who were masters of it.

Also, to say the flourishes and such are pointless or serve no purpose, is neglecting another form of combat. On the psychological level.

The lightsaber. In all it's omni-directional beauty, it is bright, it is colorful. It is more deadly than any sword that exists in reality. A theoretical weapon yes, but we are talking about a theoretical combat style.
Psychologically, flourishes are intimidating. They throw off the straightfowardness of a fight. They may seem impractical, but they are playing an entirely different battle on a different field.

The bright blade is already eye-catching and distracting. It may cause you to concentrate on where the blade is going as opposed to studying your opponents body movements. And may I stress that this weapon can cut through anything and has little or no regards as to where on its blade you touch it. With a sword, sharp or not, its side (and sometimes back) are okay to touch. You have to worry about the slightest knick during the whole fight. It is dangerous to keep your eye off your opponents shoulders/footwork. But they must pay attention to the blade in addition to it's already natural instinct to pay attention to vibrant and bright objects. If I was say in a battle with two single-edged swords, I know that my opponents blade is only dangerous in his hand, also that if I happened to get close enough to brush up against it, I am fine. With an omni-directional blade, I don't have that luxury. Not to mention that the blade is bright, and certainly distracting.

On some Chinese straight swords, and other weapons, they tie red tassles or other structures to the hilt. It causes psychological distraction. The flourishes made with it may seem impractical on a physical level, but it plays a much larger role. A duel is not simply a physical battle. There is practicality in flourishing a lightsaber.

That being said, I do realize the times in the prequels when people had themselves wide open.

But I like to imagine prequel fights like games of high-speed chess.

[JdiKnhtJMH]

Here's something to consider that I think makes the problem with the lightsaber battles in the prequels easily clear. Most of us here have seen sex in a movie, many of us have probably seen porn. What's the difference? In a good film, if there's sex involved, it's an expression of feelings, or a plot point. In Miller's Crossing we see Tom shacking up with Liam's girl  - Both men feel for her, but it's not certain if she's merely courting them to save her brother or not, and there's a good bit of angst and betrayal involved in that love triangle where most everyone has their own angle and Tom and Verne's scenes together move the plot along.

Compare this to porn, where there is the flimsiest of set ups for the sex to occur.

To me, the saber duels in the OT represented characters feelings and moved the plot along, after each saber duel, things were not the same again, not simply because a character had died, but because the ones that survived changed.

The duels in the prequels, to me, represent lightsaber porn. Flimsy set ups, and then along to the action. Imagine Darth Maul entered the palace in Theed and said he was there to fix the cable, and then they all just start lightsabering.

[Master VorNach]

Plus, if a jedi is a supposed master of combat, why all the flourishes and such. an amateur simply just thrusting with the saber would have been able to kill a jedi in any fight i've seen from the movies. Follow Aria Stark's method: Stick them with the pointy end. haha.

Movie choreography is not supposed to be realistic. Real fights, and even a friendly combat matches, do not look like the movies nor should they. Stage combat is about telling a story with simulated violence, it has little to do with actual combat. This concept has been discussed extensively in other threads in the forum so I wont go into any more detail at this point.

[Rassilon]

I cant say I disagree. Movie combat isnt about realism, and should tell a story, however an added sense of fear and realism would help to move that story along. Emotions can be portrayed in dance but thats because there is passion in the moves. In the PT there isnt passion, there is precision. And this debate extends to many other topics. Cars, movies, whatever. Passion vs precision. Ferrari vs bmw. Personally I prefer to have more passion in a fight, because that is emotion, which at the core is what fuels the fire of violence. If yoi are going to try to make an emotional moment in a fight by using the death of a character, do me te consistence of having that emotion throughout. Yes yes. Training. I get it. But emotions are very powerful and not to
Be underestimated, considering they are at the core of many of our actions.